The main thrust of his point to the father as regards his brother’s return was ‘Whatever you do dad, don’t show any mercy on him!”

Ok, that is bad exegesis. But you see my point. The son who stayed behind lacked compassion, mercy, understanding and forgiveness.

He was also angry, jealous, judgemental, and yes, self-righteous.

Yet! (are you still with me?) Yet! …both sons were welcome in the father’s home. Why?

Because both sons knew the father and the father knew both sons.

Here is the problem with the pre-trib rapture. It’s being interpreted, for the most part, by the sons who stay at home.

The sons who have left and returned after wasting their inheritance, on the other hand, have seen another side of the father – mercy, compassion.

The fight about pre mid or post trib rapture is not about good exegesis or even good Christians. Its about mercy and compassion.

And mercy and compassion is the best exegetical argument one can ever hope to make about anything.

So when is the rapture? It’s precisely at that point in time and events where mercy and compassion can be best demonstrated.

—
NINTH, I have read many types of writings on the timing of the rapture
and find the those who do not hold to a pre-Trib position never account
for inconsistencies in their position with scripture properly divided.
—
I have found this to be VERY true of pre-trib believers.

One thing is for sure, if you are right, I have nothing to worry about. If I am, may God keep you during the troublesome time. Many will fall away at that time. It doesn’t matter if you believe they were never saved, or whether they fell away, either way it happens.

FIRST, my comments were meant to raise SOME points. I only included
the more salient points, so neceessary brevity accounts for “lack”. When I
was saved (and since), I thoroughly read and studied the Bible from Genesis to Revelation and sought the Lord on and received revelation/understanding
on hundreds of doctrinal points. I read many good books and considered all the views of the Rapture prayerfully and carefully. At various points,
I held pre-,mid-and post- Trib views and the pre-wrath (I call it the 3/4-Trib) view as well as amillenial and post-millenial views as possible fits to all of the relevant verses. Only after good study of this question did it become absolutely clear that only the pre-Trib position squared best
with all verses in the Word of God. All other views are seriously flawed.
Also, Jews are only part of that tree into which Gentile believers are grafted
IF they TOO are believers. Romans 9:6 states “For they are not all Israel , which are of Israel” and 9:8 says “children of the flesh … are NOT the
children of God “. The tree to which you refer is understood best as the
tree of believers because only belief in Messiah gets them BACK into
that olive tree of believers – witness Romans 11:23 “And they also, if
they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to
graft them in again”. We are ONE man with SAVED Jews ONLY!!!

SECOND, anyone who because of their faith in Jesus satisfies Rev 20:4
“…”and which had not worshipped the beast…(etc)” BY missing the Trib
by the Rapture will reign with Christ. So, you will see me there with all the saved! Note carefully, by rightly dividing the Word, that NOT ALL saints that
will reign with Christ will have had a history of being BEHEADED- the apostles will reign but were NOT all beheaded!

THIRD, I assume you mean before the 7th vial BUT Rev 16:15 does
NOT refer to the Church UNLESS you WANT it to. Anyone can read into
a text the conclusion they want from it -that is called eisegesis. We need
exegesis. The first is from man; the second is God’s message from the
text. There is no mention of the Church from Rev 4:1 to Rev 19 . There
are however saints in the Trib. They are not in the dispensation of the Church! BUT then again neither are the guileless 144,000 who are
ALL sealed Jewish believers in the Trib who are saved. They like the
two witnesses are raptured BEFORE the end of the Trib too. Guess God
raptures each group of witnesses in their “own order ” (1 Cor 15:23) throughout the Church age – WHEN THEIR TESTIMONY IS COMPLETE!!
So to with the Church which has been busy witnessing to all types of unbelievers for nearly 2000 yrs.

FOURTH, it is an artificial distinction to say wrath only refers to
judgement in the lake of fire. Verses like 1 Thess 1:10, 2:16 and
5:9 use wrath because it is a more general term which the Lord uses
to include punishments other than hellfire judgements also. IF the Lord meant only the lake of fire he would have said hellfire. Study all usages
in the KJV of “wrath” from Gen to Rev and you will see earthly
punishments as well as hellfire are refered to.

FIFTH, the pre-Trib view exegetes out of the Bible because it is THERE
to begin with! It is not as you want to believe – “ADDED”.
In John 14:1-3 Jesus said :
“Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God , believe also in me.
In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have
told you. I go to prepare a PLACE for you. And if I go and prepare a
place for you, I will come again, and RECEIVE YOU UNTO MYSELF; that
where I am, THERE YOU MAY BE ALSO.”
This verse CLEARLY shows Jesus is coming back to for us, to RECEIVE
us to a PLACE in the Father’s house to which Jesus, at that time, was
to go, in order to prepare said PLACE.
Considering that Jesus comes back to earth “with the armies which
were in heaven” in Rev 19:14, and that in Zechariah 14:5 we are
told “and the Lord my God shall come, and ALL the saints WITH
thee “, it is easy to see that the coming FOR the saints followed by
a coming WITH ALL the saints while the Church is NOT mentioned
during the Trib is best explained by a pre-Trib rapture of the Church
after its testimony about God’s free gift of saving grace is finished
at the end of the age of grace.

SIXTH, being incorrect on the timing of the rapture can no way
jeopardize anyone’s salvation, as you seem to imply, because in
Matt 12:31 Jesus states “All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be
forgiven unto men but the blashemy against the Holy Ghost” and
to commit this one would have to reject Jesus knowningly despite
clear evidence of his being the Messiah and reckoning that His
testimony was instead from the evil one (God forbid!!). Also ,
in John 6:37 we read”…and him that cometh to me I will in no wise
cast out” and in John 6:39 we read “And this is the father’s will
which hath sent me, that of ALL which he hath given me I should
lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.”

SEVENTH, we receive our interpretation by comparing spiritual
things with spiritual things in the Word of God because all experiences
are to judged against the record of scripture the authorithy of which
supercedes ALL other revelation –and yes, I have had those too, but
will not depend on experience when I have a more sure word of
prophecy in the Word of God.

EIGHTH, many wise women of prior years studied the Bible and came to the conclusion that it DOES speak of a pre-Trib rapture, so I believe the woman you spoke to might not be as wise as she thinks!

NINTH, I have read many types of writings on the timing of the rapture
and find the those who do not hold to a pre-Trib position never account
for inconsistencies in their position with scripture properly divided. They also tend to be unsure that they will remain saved and have a great drive
to work for what God is GRACIOUSLY trying to give them because HE loves
them and is only to eager to do them good- whether it be ETERNAL salvation, the baptism in the Holy Spirit, deliverance or healing etc.

TENTH, a chapter a day is not as good ,I believe as a topic studied
until the Holy Spirit makes the answer clear from scripture thru prayer!
Believing in a pre-Trib rapture makes me appreciate how gracious God
is and how thankful I should be- forget “warm and fuzzy”. Give me a
solid promise from the Lord. And, the rapture does not rule out
persecution : consider our brothers and sisters in the Sudan where
over the past 10(?) yrs at least two million have been CRUCIFIED for
their faith while international eyes turn away !!

May the Saviour the Lord Jesus Christ fill the eyes of your understanding
with his illumination of the scriptures that you see clearly!!!

If we do not receive our interpretation BY THE SPIRIT, then it is of no value. To just believe what we are taught, is religious, because have not received by the Holy Spirit. I heard a wise woman once state, that if people read their bibles as much as they should, then they would find that it is impossible to believe in pre-trib rapture.

Usually, pre-trib rapture believers are unable to properly interpret key scriptures throughout the word regarding both end times, and many other topics. They tend to be people that stick to the “chapter a day” rule, rather than actually seek God’s face like they should. If this is not the case with an individual, then I would expect that they simply are believing whatever seems good in their own eyes, and whatever makes them feel good. It certainly feels warm and fuzzy to believe in a pre-trib rapture, with no persecution. I’m all for that, as long as it is truth, which according to the Word, interpreted by the Spirit (for we know it is not of any PRIVATE interpretation), it is not truth.

Pre-trib rapture belief has destroyed people’s salvation in the past, at Paul’s time, and during Chinese persecutions, etc, and it will do it again.

None the less, we CAN suffer God’s wrath in the vials. Revelation, right at the end, says that anyone that adds to the book revelation will suffer the plagues that are written in it. If anyone REMOVES from it, their name will be removed from the book of life. That means that pre-trib believers are walking on dangerous ground, removing us from the tribulation. It’s a great danger to be making revelation mean whatever our hearts fancy.

What is your last time, if you don’t mind?

Your interpretation of scripture, regarding the end times, is very lacking. Do you ever read the OT? Do you realize that we were grafted into the SAME tree, not a different one? We are not one tree, and the Jews another. We are ONE MAN.

You said…
–
Fourth, the ones beheaded in the Trib period are never called the
Church because they are to be differentiated from believers in the
age of grace and scripture is trying to show this. To say or believe
otherwise is to imply God overlooked something really important
by not mentioning the Church during the Tribulation period and
I have only one thing to say to that idea : UNBELIEVEABLE!!!
–

The ones that were beheaded, reign with Christ. If you aren’t in the tribulation, I guess that doesn’t include you.

The church is never mentioned in the tribulation scriptures? Just before the vials are finished being poured out, at the fifth one, Yashua Himself calls out for the church to keep their garments, lest they be found naked.

There are NO scriptures that support a pre-trib rapture without a whole lot of twisting. Please go read my welcome message as well. Search for “welcome” in the search box.

I’ll finish reading your post later, gotta go to work.

Second, Jesus himself, in John 14:1-7, CLEARLY shows he is
coming back for his own after he goes to the Father’s house to
prepare a place for us to which he will THEN bring us TO BE WITH
him . In 1Thess 4:13-18 we are told that with the TRUMP of GOD
(NOT TRUMPET because it makes a difference!!) we (the living and
the dead in Christ) shall be caught up to meet the Lord IN THE AIR
and so shall we EVER be with the Lord. In 1Cor15:51-54, it is
CLEARLY stated (in KJV) that “at the last TRUMP, for the TRUMPET
shall sound” we shall be changed!! Led by the Holy Spirit, the KJV translators corrctly differentiated between those two words to
operationally define a TRUMP as a BLAST on a TRUMPET, in that
verse, as opposed to profane/secular dictionaries and church
lexicons which incorrectly give the two words as being the same
thing!! In Judaism, the LAST TRUMP is Rosh Hashannah (R.H.) and
is at the end of the “harvest season” . If the harvest season of the
Church age of GRACE ends on a R.H., it would make perfect sense
that God is using the harvest paradigm to illustrate the end or
completion of the harvest of the Church after the sowing of the
Word of God (Jesus himself and the preaching of the gospel ) in the
earth and it would NOT violate scripture because R H is a TWO day
holiday and we would still not know the day and the hour !!! Also
there is a “first trump” in Judaism and it is what we call Pentecost
and of course in the sequence of Jewish holidays it begins the harvest season!! How fitting!! Also, there is a “GREAT trump” and that is the
Day of Atonement, probably when the Son of man “shall send send
his angels with the GREAT sound of a trumpet” described in Matt 24:31
to ” gather his elect”. Israel is the “elect” THEN, as in the O T, since the Church comes back to earth WITH the Lord according to Revelation 19:13-14 where they wear “fine linen white and clean” and have obviously
ALREADY been gathered (pre-Trib rapture).

Third, a pre-Trib rapture best fits with the GIFT of salvation in
an age of GRACE when WE TURN FROM religious self-saving impulses
that really stem from the satanic root idea introduced into man in
Eden where man was tempted to live and act independent of God
and by his own reasoning based on “knowlege” he could acquire !!
We do not have to endure to the end to be saved because we have
promises that we are “not appointed” unto wrath that we “shall be
saved from the wrath to come”. Pick whichever “wrath” you believe
this verse speaks of in the book of Revelation-the wrath of the Lamb,
the wrath of God and/or the wrath of the devil-and you must agree
that scripture shows those wraths are NOT for the Church!!! No
wonder that the “Church” is not mentioned among the believers
ON THE EARTH in the Trib period from Rev4:1- 19:1.

Fourth, the ones beheaded in the Trib period are never called the
Church because they are to be differentiated from believers in the
age of grace and scripture is trying to show this. To say or believe
otherwise is to imply God overlooked something really important
by not mentioning the Church during the Tribulation period and
I have only one thing to say to that idea : UNBELIEVEABLE!!!

Fifth, do aword study of “wrath” in the KJV and you will find that
God always reserves his wrath for the wicked -those who refuse to
believe God and his promises. Believers are justified in God’s sight
by FAITH alone and NOT WORKS because God’s justice demands a
reversal of what happened in the garden of Eden when Adam
DOUBTED (had NO FAITH in what God said) but WORKED (reached out
for the tree of knowledge to follow his own self-saving/centered way-
just as Satan did). This is also why people cannot be saved after they
die – because they then “know”- which precludes the type of faith and
trust that God’s justice demands now!

The pre Trib rapture is the only view that is in accord with all the scriptures without twisting them and that is in accord with a God
who is a responsible loving Father acting graciously toward his
children because he already paid the ultimate price for them
on the cross in his Son Jesus! To say the Church will be on the earth suffering thru the Trib to be “purified” is simply religious spirits
talking and NOT grace. Study “WRATH” ! Wrath is reserved for the
wicked who God defines in Hebrews to have a “heart of unbelief”.
Thus believers will not SEE his wrath: the Church will be raptured
pre-Trib.