The Deception of Pre-trib
We address two deceptions in this article. We address why the pre-trib rapture is labeled as a deception, by Yashua and Paul. And we also address why the immanency concept is also a deception. In order to get a firm grasp on what I'm speaking about, it may help to make sure you click each scripture, and meditate on how it applies to what I'm talking about.
The Deception of Pre-Trib
When the anti-Christ appears, people will believe that pre-trib view was wrong, along with the rest of the "rapture" views, and that Christ has now taken His throne on earth, in the form of the anti-Christ (though they won't call him that). He will show great signs and wonders, SHOWING THAT HE IS GOD. That is why Yashua spoke the following two verses, very shortly after speaking on the abomination of desolation in Matthew 24:15
.
Matthew 24:23-25 (KJV)
- Many shall tell you that Christ has arrived.
- Yashua says there WILL be false Christs.
- He has told us before hand so that we are aware of it, because we will be here when the anti-Christ is revealed.
- Even the elect could be deceived, if God allowed it.
In addition to that, when the anti-Christ starts killing people for not worshiping him, it very well may be considered by the "Christians" of the day to be a righteous act for the Lord(John 16:2). They may very well believe it is a fulfillment of Christ ruling with an iron rod. But, Zechariah tells us that during the thousand year reign, if people do not worship Him, He will simply withhold rain from their crops (Zechariah 14:17), not kill them.
And because of the anti-Christ exalting himself as God, Paul wrote 2 Thessalonians 2, to warn us yet again, to not be deceived. He was effectively re-iterating the warning given by Yashua in Matthew 24:15, and the revelations given to Daniel, concerning the end of days.
2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 (KJV)
- Paul is writing about the deception of the anti-Christ, and immanency.
- There are pre-requisites to the coming of the Lord, that we will see, as CLEARLY echoed through out scripture, both OT and NT.
- The falling away, in connection with the man of sin being revealed, will occur FIRST.
- The man of sin will exalt himself as God, proclaiming that he IS God. This is what Yashua spoke of in Matthew 24:15,23-24
The falling away, IS acceptance of the anti-Christ by Christians. That is precisely what it is. In fact, you can tie the falling away to acceptance of the mark of the beast. I believe that this is a spiritual mark, but will also become a physical mark that they implant in the form of a micro chip. A bit of a falling away has begun already, but the major event is when they accept the anti-Christ. And that is precisely why Christ said "do not believe it", when someone says "here is Christ". And, it will also bring about acceptance of the mark of the beast, by professing Christians. Not only will they not resist it, they will accept it with gladness, because they believe the anti-Christ is Yashua returned.
Abomination of Desolation: Daniel 7:8-10, Daniel 7:21-22, Daniel 7:19-22, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 11:31,36, 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4
Yashua's Warning: Matthew 24:15, Matthew 24:23-24 If you want to see how 2 Thessalonians 2 is tied to the abomination of desolation, and Matthew 24 is tied to it as well, read my Anti-Christ of The END blog entry. In summary, Daniel shows us that the anti-Christ is the abomination of desolation . Yashua warns us of the abomination of desolation, standing in the temple (see note to the right). And Paul speaks of the EXACT same thing as Daniel, in regard to the anti-Christ sitting in the temple, showing himself to be God. Again, see the scriptures to the right.
However, God will keep His own, but that does not mean we do not preach against deception. For all we know, God could use us as a tool to pull people out of this deception.
The Deception of Immanency
| Matthew 24:4-5 (KJV) And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. |
Mark 13:5-6 (KJV) And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you: 6For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. |
Luke 21:8 (KJV) And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them. |
These deceivers will look like the real deal. They will look like other Christians, proclaiming Christ, and at the same time, preaching deception. Some of them will simply be ignorant, and will not understand. While others will be direct tools of the enemy for spreading the deception. Some important things that are mentioned in the scriptures above are...
- Be careful about this deception
- The promoters of this deception shall come in Christ's name. In other words, they will be Christians
- They will be proclaiming that Yashua is Christ.
One of the deceptions that they will teach is immanency, which is that Christ could appear at any moment, because no one knows the day or the hour. But, in Luke 21:8, Yashua said that this is a deception, by saying that these deceivers will be saying "the time draweth near" (See Luke 21:8 above), or in other words, He could return at any moment. Going on from Matthew 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13, Yashua proceeds to show that MANY things will happen before His return, that WE will be able to see. They will be identifying events, that will happen before His return.
One of the most common ways of making the immanency concept appear biblical is the idea of separation of the roles of the Jews and Gentiles in relation to end time prophecy. Now, it is clear, that the nation of Israel has specific parts to play, in the fulfillment of prophecy. But, the people "Israel" are both Jew and Gentile. We have been adopted, and grafted into the olive tree (Romans 11). It is not he who is circumcised in the flesh that is Israel, but he that is circumcised in heart. The promises of God, excluding those explicitly applying to the physical nation of Israel, the returning of the Jews to Israel, and many other such things that apply only to the nation of Israel, are promises for us as well.
Now, when we view the scriptures from this light, and we see the OT prophecies of the day of the Lord, and how it will go down, it is impossible to view Christ's coming as one for the "Christians" before the tribulation of those days, and yet another coming after the tribulation of those days. Furthermore, it becomes difficult, if not impossible, to view His coming as one of immanency, or potential for happening at any moment. He comes as a thief, that takes those by surprise who are not watching, and preparing for His coming. Those who have not stored up their oil in extra vessels with their lamps, will think they need to go out and get some more oil. And, while they are doing so, the bridegroom shall come, and they will not be allowed into the wedding feast.
1 Thessalonians 5:3-5 (KJV)
- "They" refers to the wicked, not the righteous.
- That day should NOT overtake us as a thief. Therefore all the concepts of that day overtaking us as a thief are null and void. That doesn't mean that we will know the exact day or hour, because we probably won't. But, I have believed for quite some time that we WILL know the season, because the Word gives us many things to be looking for.
January 6th, 2008 - 07:39
Bad exegesis. Nice try, but too many errors to state in a comment.
February 22nd, 2008 - 00:46
Mike says: “Nice try, but too many errors to state in a comment.”
Now that, is a cop-out.
March 16th, 2008 - 03:55
Trenta, excellent work here and very “TRUTHFUL” The two previous, souls who commented apparently are so indoctrinated by false teaching that they cannot “see” because of the light in their eyes is darkness, which the bible warns about. These are those who will do the “falling” away because they will lose their faith waiting for Christ to come and rescue them and He will not return until all things be fulfilled will sadly find themselves in the midst of tribulations and lose their faith because they had to suffer the tribulation. Sad state of affairs.
, “…I know not whence ye are, depart from me ye workers of iniquity”. He is not speaking to “sinners” who are already dead in their sins their sentence is already a given-death..but to those who called themselves “Christians” they are those who will be cast outside the kingdom of God where there will be a weeping and gnashing of teeth. Because they did not know the signs of the times and did not prepare and do what God wants them to do, but rather followed him and yet continued in their “own wisdom”, a way that seems right to man, but are in serious error, which leads to death.
Throughout the bible God has never, ever, ever, removed his people from “tribulation” but rather has always provided a means of “covering” and “escape” to lead them “through”. Whether it be the blood sacrifice, blood over the door posts, the ark, Moses or any other means of warning or provisions through God’s prophets and “chosen ones”. These two constants have always been, God NEVER changes, God provides, and the people either choose to listen if they are pure in their hearts towards God and are delivered in the midst of tribulation, or because of their wickedness and “UNBELIEF” “go through” the tribulation, that could have been prevented had they “listened” to the “escape” plan.
“Being prepared” what do you need to be prepared for, if one is to go off the earth into heaven? Assuming one is already (baptised) Christian and saved by the blood of the lamb and covered by his blood, that would be all that is required, if rapture is legit, then you should already be prepared, and just “waiting”.
Let me say this, judgement on the earth is not just for the wicked, but for all mankind. Starting with the “church” and God’s people. Historically judgement falls on God”s people first,-always. Sinners are already, condemned to die. The judgement fell in the garden of Eden. Those who have been shown the truth and then continue in their sin, are whom God judges. This world is going to be judged because those whom He left behind (Christians) as His “embassy” have failed miserably at their job. That is why it says in Luke 13:27
In Revelations, what is the very first thing that John describes of CHRIST’S REVELATION (vision)(not John’s), what is the very first thing that happens, Christ judges the 7 churches….hmmmm….the VERY FIRST THING HE DOES. He doesn’t pat them on the back and then say, good job, now lets go have “lunch”. He warns them that their doctrine is in serious trouble and tells them to clean up their act, why? because tribulation is coming, that is what is eminent, and only a church that is “without spot or wrinkle” is the church that will survive the “eminent” coming of tribulation!!! It is plain to see, right smack in front of your face, the Lord gives his warnings to His church first. Why would he warn them if He is going to take them out of the earth???? He warns them, gives them a chance to do what they are called to do, so that when the tribulation comes they will be the “pillar” in the desert, standing firm on the “foundation” of Christ, unwavering, unmoving, ROCK SOLID. HELLO DOES ANYBODY GET THIS??? so they will be able to withstand the tribulation, withstand and resist the mark of the beast, and lead the sinners into the “promised land” to make a way of escape from the “second death” hello??? God’s people will be victorious if they “prepare” themselves clean, themselves and stand HOLY before God and the world. Not, as we are today, gutless, sinners who can’t even tell their neighbors and co-workers that they are christian for fear they would lose their friendship. Making themselves appear to be just like the world, clothed in a worldly fashion, being tossed to and fro by every lying doctrine out there.
Truth is not easy, but truth is a necessity. Christians need to search the word for the TRUTH, and not be tossed as a ship upon the stormy seas. Following the lying doctrines of “the spirit of antichrist” which already does work…check it out, it is in the bible. 1 john4:3. It is already here, oh no, we weren’t ruptured…hmmmm.
Anti-christ is a spiritual movement, lying doctrines, in Revelations it is a beast that rises up out of the sea, not Anti-christ no where does it say Anti-christ but beast and FALSE PROPHET. They make war with the saints, and this is when Christ returns with his Host, and as he is riding in the heavens to return to make war,
Rev:17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
and then: a second battle comes after the one who is responsible for the “spirit of anti-christ” -Satan, who wants to sit upon the throne of the most high and declare himself as God and ascend his throne higher than God…
1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
(oh no, how does this happen, if he were the beast and the false prophet?? they have already been cast into the lake of fire after the battle of armeggedon, wait, deceived the nations, hmmm sounds like the man behind the curtain, who deceives with the spirit of anitchrist….and gives power to the beast and false prophet.)
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
(who are those who did not worship the beast? or were witnesses of Jesus?, if all Christians are “raptured” off of the earth? the sinners??? the Isrealites? who don’t know Jesus???? who rules and reigns with Christ? – those who overcame…can’t be the sinners, there would be not Christians to give them the truth can’t be “raptured” Christians because they weren’t there to Not receive the mark and not worship the beast…doesn’t make sense does it?? oh, I see no one got the mark or worshipped the beast because they were raptured, so why mention it? why reward someone for something that they didn’t do by default?)
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. { the rest of the dead are-those who did not have the covering of Christ’s blood.)
6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
(oh wait…Christ has just ruled and reigned for a thousand years with his saints…who is Satan going to deceive???? is the bible a liar? is the spirit of antichrist back??? to deceive….? who is he deceiving those who have been ruling and reigning with Christ? or those who were flesh and blood at the time of Christ’s coming that were not transformed because they were not heirs to the throne of Christ. Those outside the city, with weeping and gnashing of teeth…?)
9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (notice, the beast and false prophet are already in the lake of fire, and NOW Satan/the devil is cast there….hmmmm) (two battles???? but one armageddon.)
11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. (now these are those who were alive during the ruling and reigning of Christ who were flesh and blood and were killed in the final battle of Armageddon and those who did not have the covering of Christ’s blood who were sinners from the beginning of time)
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (death and hell=the grave and physical death, the original sentence of Adam and eve in the garden of Eden)
15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Simple if you follow the logic of the eschatology.
March 27th, 2008 - 02:01
Amen yes,Amen! I BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE RIGHT ON THE TRUTH! I get frustrated at times because so many christians are deluded to believe we will be pre-trib raptured; but the scriptures are not saying that at all.
I’ve been taught always about pre-trib rapture; but when i carefully and prayerfully searched the scriptures i saw the same as you.And my question to other’s was; then who are the precious ones who are beheaded for their faith? I read once that the notion of the pre-trib rapture started from a young catholic woman who claimed she had a dream about it. Don’t know if that is true or not. But it just is not what the scriptures say.
May 7th, 2008 - 22:48
This is my first visit to this site as a one who only recently started
reading and occaisionally responding to blogosphere commentary.
Regarding the pre-Trib issue I have only a few comments.
First, the earliest extra-biblical mention or writing in Church history
about a pre-Trib rapture or pre-Trib removal of believers from the
earth that has been found NOW dates back to the THIRD or FOURTH century to an early (non-Catholic) church writer called Ephraim the
Syrian. Grant Jeffrey wrote about this in his books dealing with the
Second Coming of Christ. The ideas that this docrine is of recent
vintage and that it developed from a vision given to Sarah MacDonald
(a 16 y.o. Scottish girl about 150 yrs ago) or that it is the product of
a Catholic (Jesuit?) conspiracy are now known to be FALSE.
Second, Jesus himself, in John 14:1-7
, CLEARLY shows he is
we are told that with the TRUMP of GOD
where they wear “fine linen white and clean” and have obviously
coming back for his own after he goes to the Father’s house to
prepare a place for us to which he will THEN bring us TO BE WITH
him . In 1Thess 4:13-18
(NOT TRUMPET because it makes a difference!!) we (the living and
the dead in Christ) shall be caught up to meet the Lord IN THE AIR
and so shall we EVER be with the Lord. In 1Cor15:51-54, it is
CLEARLY stated (in KJV) that “at the last TRUMP, for the TRUMPET
shall sound” we shall be changed!! Led by the Holy Spirit, the KJV translators corrctly differentiated between those two words to
operationally define a TRUMP as a BLAST on a TRUMPET, in that
verse, as opposed to profane/secular dictionaries and church
lexicons which incorrectly give the two words as being the same
thing!! In Judaism, the LAST TRUMP is Rosh Hashannah (R.H.) and
is at the end of the “harvest season” . If the harvest season of the
Church age of GRACE ends on a R.H., it would make perfect sense
that God is using the harvest paradigm to illustrate the end or
completion of the harvest of the Church after the sowing of the
Word of God (Jesus himself and the preaching of the gospel ) in the
earth and it would NOT violate scripture because R H is a TWO day
holiday and we would still not know the day and the hour !!! Also
there is a “first trump” in Judaism and it is what we call Pentecost
and of course in the sequence of Jewish holidays it begins the harvest season!! How fitting!! Also, there is a “GREAT trump” and that is the
Day of Atonement, probably when the Son of man “shall send send
his angels with the GREAT sound of a trumpet” described in Matt 24:31
to ” gather his elect”. Israel is the “elect” THEN, as in the O T, since the Church comes back to earth WITH the Lord according to Revelation 19:13-14
ALREADY been gathered (pre-Trib rapture).
Third, a pre-Trib rapture best fits with the GIFT of salvation in
an age of GRACE when WE TURN FROM religious self-saving impulses
that really stem from the satanic root idea introduced into man in
Eden where man was tempted to live and act independent of God
and by his own reasoning based on “knowlege” he could acquire !!
We do not have to endure to the end to be saved because we have
promises that we are “not appointed” unto wrath that we “shall be
saved from the wrath to come”. Pick whichever “wrath” you believe
this verse speaks of in the book of Revelation-the wrath of the Lamb,
the wrath of God and/or the wrath of the devil-and you must agree
that scripture shows those wraths are NOT for the Church!!! No
wonder that the “Church” is not mentioned among the believers
ON THE EARTH in the Trib period from Rev4:1- 19:1.
Fourth, the ones beheaded in the Trib period are never called the
Church because they are to be differentiated from believers in the
age of grace and scripture is trying to show this. To say or believe
otherwise is to imply God overlooked something really important
by not mentioning the Church during the Tribulation period and
I have only one thing to say to that idea : UNBELIEVEABLE!!!
Fifth, do aword study of “wrath” in the KJV and you will find that
God always reserves his wrath for the wicked -those who refuse to
believe God and his promises. Believers are justified in God’s sight
by FAITH alone and NOT WORKS because God’s justice demands a
reversal of what happened in the garden of Eden when Adam
DOUBTED (had NO FAITH in what God said) but WORKED (reached out
for the tree of knowledge to follow his own self-saving/centered way-
just as Satan did). This is also why people cannot be saved after they
die – because they then “know”- which precludes the type of faith and
trust that God’s justice demands now!
The pre Trib rapture is the only view that is in accord with all the scriptures without twisting them and that is in accord with a God
who is a responsible loving Father acting graciously toward his
children because he already paid the ultimate price for them
on the cross in his Son Jesus! To say the Church will be on the earth suffering thru the Trib to be “purified” is simply religious spirits
talking and NOT grace. Study “WRATH” ! Wrath is reserved for the
wicked who God defines in Hebrews to have a “heart of unbelief”.
Thus believers will not SEE his wrath: the Church will be raptured
pre-Trib.
May 8th, 2008 - 07:57
Hi Tim,
What is your last time, if you don’t mind?
Your interpretation of scripture, regarding the end times, is very lacking. Do you ever read the OT? Do you realize that we were grafted into the SAME tree, not a different one? We are not one tree, and the Jews another. We are ONE MAN.
You said…
–
Fourth, the ones beheaded in the Trib period are never called the
Church because they are to be differentiated from believers in the
age of grace and scripture is trying to show this. To say or believe
otherwise is to imply God overlooked something really important
by not mentioning the Church during the Tribulation period and
I have only one thing to say to that idea : UNBELIEVEABLE!!!
–
The ones that were beheaded, reign with Christ. If you aren’t in the tribulation, I guess that doesn’t include you.
The church is never mentioned in the tribulation scriptures? Just before the vials are finished being poured out, at the fifth one, Yashua Himself calls out for the church to keep their garments, lest they be found naked.
There are NO scriptures that support a pre-trib rapture without a whole lot of twisting. Please go read my welcome message as well. Search for “welcome” in the search box.
I’ll finish reading your post later, gotta go to work.
May 8th, 2008 - 10:50
You speak of not being appointed unto wrath, yet you don’t understand what that means. If you read more of the OT, you will see that it’s talking about the judgment. We are not appointed to receive the wrath of the lamb, in being cast into the lake of fire for ever, and ever, and ever. That is the wrath we are saved from.
None the less, we CAN suffer God’s wrath in the vials. Revelation, right at the end, says that anyone that adds to the book revelation will suffer the plagues that are written in it. If anyone REMOVES from it, their name will be removed from the book of life. That means that pre-trib believers are walking on dangerous ground, removing us from the tribulation. It’s a great danger to be making revelation mean whatever our hearts fancy.
May 8th, 2008 - 11:03
You said…
–
To say the Church will be on the earth suffering thru the Trib to be “purified” is simply religious spirits talking and NOT grace.
–
If we do not receive our interpretation BY THE SPIRIT, then it is of no value. To just believe what we are taught, is religious, because have not received by the Holy Spirit. I heard a wise woman once state, that if people read their bibles as much as they should, then they would find that it is impossible to believe in pre-trib rapture.
Usually, pre-trib rapture believers are unable to properly interpret key scriptures throughout the word regarding both end times, and many other topics. They tend to be people that stick to the “chapter a day” rule, rather than actually seek God’s face like they should. If this is not the case with an individual, then I would expect that they simply are believing whatever seems good in their own eyes, and whatever makes them feel good. It certainly feels warm and fuzzy to believe in a pre-trib rapture, with no persecution. I’m all for that, as long as it is truth, which according to the Word, interpreted by the Spirit (for we know it is not of any PRIVATE interpretation), it is not truth.
Pre-trib rapture belief has destroyed people’s salvation in the past, at Paul’s time, and during Chinese persecutions, etc, and it will do it again.
May 9th, 2008 - 01:58
Very interesting responses to my comments.
Now some counterpoints to consider.
FIRST, my comments were meant to raise SOME points. I only included
states “For they are not all Israel , which are of Israel” and 9:8 says “children of the flesh … are NOT the
“And they also, if
the more salient points, so neceessary brevity accounts for “lack”. When I
was saved (and since), I thoroughly read and studied the Bible from Genesis to Revelation and sought the Lord on and received revelation/understanding
on hundreds of doctrinal points. I read many good books and considered all the views of the Rapture prayerfully and carefully. At various points,
I held pre-,mid-and post- Trib views and the pre-wrath (I call it the 3/4-Trib) view as well as amillenial and post-millenial views as possible fits to all of the relevant verses. Only after good study of this question did it become absolutely clear that only the pre-Trib position squared best
with all verses in the Word of God. All other views are seriously flawed.
Also, Jews are only part of that tree into which Gentile believers are grafted
IF they TOO are believers. Romans 9:6
children of God “. The tree to which you refer is understood best as the
tree of believers because only belief in Messiah gets them BACK into
that olive tree of believers – witness Romans 11:23
they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to
graft them in again”. We are ONE man with SAVED Jews ONLY!!!
SECOND, anyone who because of their faith in Jesus satisfies Rev 20:4
“…”and which had not worshipped the beast…(etc)” BY missing the Trib
by the Rapture will reign with Christ. So, you will see me there with all the saved! Note carefully, by rightly dividing the Word, that NOT ALL saints that
will reign with Christ will have had a history of being BEHEADED- the apostles will reign but were NOT all beheaded!
THIRD, I assume you mean before the 7th vial BUT Rev 16:15
does
to Rev 19
. There
) throughout the Church age – WHEN THEIR TESTIMONY IS COMPLETE!!
NOT refer to the Church UNLESS you WANT it to. Anyone can read into
a text the conclusion they want from it -that is called eisegesis. We need
exegesis. The first is from man; the second is God’s message from the
text. There is no mention of the Church from Rev 4:1
are however saints in the Trib. They are not in the dispensation of the Church! BUT then again neither are the guileless 144,000 who are
ALL sealed Jewish believers in the Trib who are saved. They like the
two witnesses are raptured BEFORE the end of the Trib too. Guess God
raptures each group of witnesses in their “own order ” (1 Cor 15:23
So to with the Church which has been busy witnessing to all types of unbelievers for nearly 2000 yrs.
FOURTH, it is an artificial distinction to say wrath only refers to
:16 and
judgement in the lake of fire. Verses like 1 Thess 1:10, 2
5:9 use wrath because it is a more general term which the Lord uses
to include punishments other than hellfire judgements also. IF the Lord meant only the lake of fire he would have said hellfire. Study all usages
in the KJV of “wrath” from Gen to Rev and you will see earthly
punishments as well as hellfire are refered to.
FIFTH, the pre-Trib view exegetes out of the Bible because it is THERE
Jesus said :
, and that in Zechariah 14:5
we are
to begin with! It is not as you want to believe – “ADDED”.
In John 14:1-3
“Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God , believe also in me.
In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have
told you. I go to prepare a PLACE for you. And if I go and prepare a
place for you, I will come again, and RECEIVE YOU UNTO MYSELF; that
where I am, THERE YOU MAY BE ALSO.”
This verse CLEARLY shows Jesus is coming back to for us, to RECEIVE
us to a PLACE in the Father’s house to which Jesus, at that time, was
to go, in order to prepare said PLACE.
Considering that Jesus comes back to earth “with the armies which
were in heaven” in Rev 19:14
told “and the Lord my God shall come, and ALL the saints WITH
thee “, it is easy to see that the coming FOR the saints followed by
a coming WITH ALL the saints while the Church is NOT mentioned
during the Trib is best explained by a pre-Trib rapture of the Church
after its testimony about God’s free gift of saving grace is finished
at the end of the age of grace.
SIXTH, being incorrect on the timing of the rapture can no way
Jesus states “All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be
we read”…and him that cometh to me I will in no wise
we read “And this is the father’s will
jeopardize anyone’s salvation, as you seem to imply, because in
Matt 12:31
forgiven unto men but the blashemy against the Holy Ghost” and
to commit this one would have to reject Jesus knowningly despite
clear evidence of his being the Messiah and reckoning that His
testimony was instead from the evil one (God forbid!!). Also ,
in John 6:37
cast out” and in John 6:39
which hath sent me, that of ALL which he hath given me I should
lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.”
SEVENTH, we receive our interpretation by comparing spiritual
things with spiritual things in the Word of God because all experiences
are to judged against the record of scripture the authorithy of which
supercedes ALL other revelation –and yes, I have had those too, but
will not depend on experience when I have a more sure word of
prophecy in the Word of God.
EIGHTH, many wise women of prior years studied the Bible and came to the conclusion that it DOES speak of a pre-Trib rapture, so I believe the woman you spoke to might not be as wise as she thinks!
NINTH, I have read many types of writings on the timing of the rapture
and find the those who do not hold to a pre-Trib position never account
for inconsistencies in their position with scripture properly divided. They also tend to be unsure that they will remain saved and have a great drive
to work for what God is GRACIOUSLY trying to give them because HE loves
them and is only to eager to do them good- whether it be ETERNAL salvation, the baptism in the Holy Spirit, deliverance or healing etc.
TENTH, a chapter a day is not as good ,I believe as a topic studied
until the Holy Spirit makes the answer clear from scripture thru prayer!
Believing in a pre-Trib rapture makes me appreciate how gracious God
is and how thankful I should be- forget “warm and fuzzy”. Give me a
solid promise from the Lord. And, the rapture does not rule out
persecution : consider our brothers and sisters in the Sudan where
over the past 10(?) yrs at least two million have been CRUCIFIED for
their faith while international eyes turn away !!
May the Saviour the Lord Jesus Christ fill the eyes of your understanding
with his illumination of the scriptures that you see clearly!!!
May 9th, 2008 - 10:01
I was going to respond to much of what you said, but I think I will forbear. It seems that you are very firm in your beliefs, so it would be a waste of my time, and yours, to continue. But, I am pretty surprised at your interpretation of scripture. Can’t say it’s anything other than “classic” for a pre-tribber.
—
NINTH, I have read many types of writings on the timing of the rapture
and find the those who do not hold to a pre-Trib position never account
for inconsistencies in their position with scripture properly divided.
—
I have found this to be VERY true of pre-trib believers.
One thing is for sure, if you are right, I have nothing to worry about. If I am, may God keep you during the troublesome time. Many will fall away at that time. It doesn’t matter if you believe they were never saved, or whether they fell away, either way it happens.
May 9th, 2008 - 10:02
One thing I would like to know. Are you Tim LaHaye or not?
May 9th, 2008 - 18:14
I am not Tim Lahaye and I definitely do NOT agree with all his theology
however my wife says to tell you I am just a “very avid Bible-thumper”. I guess I have been a bit too zealous sometimes. I trust that in the event I have misunderstood the scriptures (yes I still subject everything to the light of scripture and prayer for understanding), we might see the telltale sign
of the impending Trib to be the signing (confirming) of a seven year treaty between Israel and the E U (or other arising world goverment entity) AND that this probably would take place, on or close before, a Rosh Hashannah,
possibly in the years 2012 or 2030 ( That of course is not to be taken as
prophecy but as some educated speculation). Hopefully, pre-Trib is the correct view, otherwise may the Lord continue to strenghten all of us for what many of us would likely face!!!
We will all meet some day – HERE, THERE OR IN THE AIR!!! May God
bless all your efforts in seeking understanding as they are rooted in a
“love for the truth”.
May 9th, 2008 - 19:06
You too. I definitely want to be rooted in truth. Truth is more important to me than most anything else, except Love.
June 30th, 2008 - 20:03
Remember the son who did not leave to waste his inheritance?
The main thrust of his point to the father as regards his brother’s return was ‘Whatever you do dad, don’t show any mercy on him!”
Ok, that is bad exegesis. But you see my point. The son who stayed behind lacked compassion, mercy, understanding and forgiveness.
He was also angry, jealous, judgemental, and yes, self-righteous.
Yet! (are you still with me?) Yet! …both sons were welcome in the father’s home. Why?
Because both sons knew the father and the father knew both sons.
Here is the problem with the pre-trib rapture. It’s being interpreted, for the most part, by the sons who stay at home.
The sons who have left and returned after wasting their inheritance, on the other hand, have seen another side of the father – mercy, compassion.
The fight about pre mid or post trib rapture is not about good exegesis or even good Christians. Its about mercy and compassion.
And mercy and compassion is the best exegetical argument one can ever hope to make about anything.
So when is the rapture? It’s precisely at that point in time and events where mercy and compassion can be best demonstrated.